Podcast Ep #4: Social Dilemma as an Inner Dilemma Featuring Jeremy Navarro of DormOps

Today we're going to be talking about the Social Dilemma Netflix documentary and discussing our reaction to it and the commentary we've been hearing from others as well as our thoughts on how we can better navigate this social media zeitgeist that we are all living through.

Show Notes:

00:00 - Podcast Intro
00:30 - Episode summary
00:51 - Introducing Jeremy Navarro
02:00- Watching The Social Dilemma for the first time and seeing the reactions from others
03:00 - What the Social Dilemma about
03:50 - What shocked us most about the Social Dilemma
06:57 - What I think was missing from the documentary
08:03 - Who is Gen Z and how this affects them
12:00 - How DormOps juggles protecting their generation from being the product while still helping businesses grow
14:40 - How did we get here with tech and what can we do about it
15:40 - Looking at the inner dilemma that's happening
16:00 - Flip from as Tech Tool to Tech as Addiction
16:19 - Gen Z Dilemma - Utopia vs Dystopia
17:26 - Does user centric deisgn cause us more suffering than good?
18:28 - Importance of addressing our inner dilemmas
20:00 - The issue with exposing ourselves to differing opinions
20:13 - The Charles Murray Effect
22:23 - Why it's important to cultivate the right inner tools sot hat we know how to properly use external tools
23:50 - Is Generation Z more aware and woke?
25:15 - The importance of intentionality and understanding when designing for Gen Z and other generations
26:42 - Yoda's warning
29:00 - Picking up where the documentary left off and suggestions for what to do now
32:32 - Takeaways to be able to handle these tech threats
34:42 - Wrap up

Podcast Transcription:

Elizabeth: Welcome to the DesignerUp podcast, helping you level up your product design skills. I'm your host and instructor Elizabeth Alli. And this is Ep. 4 Social dilemma as an inner dilemma, featuring Jeremy Navarro of DormOps.

So today we're going to be talking about the social dilemma, Netflix documentary, and discussing our reaction to it. And the commentary we've been hearing from others, as well as our thoughts on how we can better navigate this social media zeitgeists that we are living through.

Hi guys. So today I'm here with Jeremy Navarro.

Jeremy was one of my first interns and has since become our head of digital marketing at designer up. He's also the co founder of dorm ops, which is a student run digital record getting agency that does everything from content creation to copywriting and social media, getting, um, and consulting. And, uh, what I, I think is particularly valuable and interesting about dorm ops, um, from the past effective of a client, is that it is a direct line into the minds of millennials.

Um, and the next generation that these companies are going to be marketing to, and this is not secondhand research. This is firsthand experience, and that is pretty powerful stuff. Um, and we'll get into that. Yeah. A little later in the podcast as well, but, uh, Jeremy is also an astoundingly, talented writer.

He shares his magnetic thing pieces about his journey to becoming a designer and his advice for aspiring designers and creatives on our blog. So definitely check that out as well. Uh, Jeremy, I am excited to banter with you on the podcast today. How's it going? Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me on.

I'm super excited to be here.

Elizabeth: Excellent. So at our weekly meeting last week, we were talking about the social dilemma documentary on Netflix. Um, I had just watched it. Jeremy hadn't seen it yet, but, um, he was seeing the reactions from some people on campus and was gearing up to watch it himself. So you have since seen it?

Yes, I have seen it. Yeah, it was incredibly well-made. Um, you know, There has been sort of this really visceral reaction on campus. So it was especially interesting to watch that after having seen all of those reactions. So I'm definitely eager to dive deeper into it. Yeah. Awesome. I, I haven't seen the physical reactions of people so much, but I did just kind of see what was going on in Twitter and the response from like tech and design Twitter, and, um, just have been talking to a lot of people about it and everyone has a really different take on it.

Elizabeth: And so for those of you that don't know the social dilemma is this new Netflix documentary. And in a nutshell, it really exposes how social media is designed to manipulate us and how it has morphed into a global driver for surveillance, capitalism, political polarization, and mental health issues. Um, so yeah, pretty heavy stuff.

Um, but it's super relevant to all of us as designers and creatives. Um, especially as product designers that have the most influence on how these things are shaped. Um, and it's something we talk a lot about here on the designer, out podcast, this great power that tech holds and our responsibility as designers and engineers of that tech to, you know, defend against doing harm.

Um, I've done a lot of talks about this topic. I read a lot about it on the blog and it's. At the core of what we teach in our product design master course@designerup.co. Um, so you know, what kind of, I guess, shocked me most about it. Wasn't so much the content, but really sort of the shock from everyone else.

Um, You know, I definitely respect and understand that not many are privy to the inner workings of these social media machines and, you know, I, myself included, but, um, you know, it was a sort of a lifting of the veil I say on a lot of these things and, um, It wasn't so much just the shock from the community.

I think that, you know, surprised me, but also kind of from the whistleblowers in the documentary, it was kind of a naive outlook from them that they just felt when they started on working at these companies that they were doing absolute good. And I just personally don't really believe that's ever really the case.

And you know, we'll talk a little bit about that, but. Um, you know, what did you think about the doc initial thoughts issues that you had with it? Yeah, I mean, it was especially interesting to see, you know, the emotional and the visceral reactions that all these whistleblowers had to the quote unquote social dilemma, and also the naivete that you just mentioned.

Jeremy: Um, but I think I was deeply shocked by, you know, a lot of the language that was used around tech, um, specifically social media and AI. Um, and data, um, especially the revelation that, you know, given all that's happening, sort of behind the scenes, uh, when it comes to these industries, really, we are the products.

Um, and that was a really big shocker to hear, even though I think subconsciously that's something that I always sort of recognized maybe. Yeah. But I think, yeah, I think one of the more impactful quotes from the documentary was, um, that there are only two industries that call their customers, users and that's drugs and software.

Um, mind blowing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, social media, it's really designed and programmed to give you that dopamine hit it's, it's literally a drug. So, um, I mean, I even checking my phone a few times during the documentary is as ironic as that might be. So do I, that's a really funny point about the users. I really never thought about it that way, but I'll be honest.

Elizabeth: When I first moved into UI and UX design from like, um, graphics. I thought it was pretty odd that we called them users. Um, and it was the same feeling I used to get back when I played music and everyone referred to the people that would listen to their music as fans. I don't know why, but it just felt like.

For some reason it put the creative on some kind of a pedestal, like fans always reminded me of someone that's almost like below you, or I dunno, not in the same level. I mean, maybe that's not a connotation that most people feel, but it kind of felt that way to me that like, you're this product and, um, There was that thing about users.

It just never sat well with me either, but it just kind of becomes the norm, you know? So that's a good point. Something that really surprised me as well. Yeah. And I think, you know, what I kind of was waiting for during the documentary was some sort of solution or some sewing of sort of pointers to the direction of like, what do we do about all of this?

And I think there. There was a bit of that. And I know that perhaps the intention wasn't meant to be prescriptive, but, um, I, I felt like it was kind of an afterthought attempt to offer these counteractions to, you know, kind of haul up that trajectory of, of where we're going. Um, but I don't know, it was just kind of.

This call to arms of like collective abstinent willpower. Like we need to just stop using our phones or we need to, um, expose ourselves to different points of view. And I do think those are important aspects of what we need to do to kind of maybe. Not go down a really bad path with all of this, but at the same time, I think there's a lot of things that need to come first.

Um, and I mean, this isn't the first time that Jeremy and I have dived into this stuff, um, I did a talk on his summit back in July called marketing from Marketing from A to Gen Z. I love that name by the way. Um, yeah. So Jeremy, if you just want to give a little recap about what that summit was about, um, you know, what we talked about there.

Jeremy: Yeah, sure. So Elizabeth gave a fantastic talk at summit marketing from eight and gen Z. And essentially my goal to summit was to bring together all the gen Z marketing leaders that are out there, um, in order to give some insight and some advice into what marketing to gen Z should look like, what gen Z really is, um, and sort of how, uh, so many industries have sort of, uh, Portrayed gen Z in a light that doesn't really represent, you know, who we are, um, as, as a population.

Um, and so we had an amazing two days of, of discussions and talks. Um, our first thing was about insights. Um, and we had some amazing people from juve consulting, um, from the ambassador's company from Jensey designs. Um, and we talked a lot about, you know, the, the work that goes into marketing, um, and sort of the intentionality behind it.

Um, but also, you know, who gen Z really is, um, as a group of people. And I think the one thing that sticks out to me the most is, you know, Jensey, isn't really a monolith, it's, you know, a bunch of different diverse opinions and perspectives and people's, um, at the same time, you know, it is a very sort of large demographic has a lot of buying power.

Um, so you can understand, you know, why so many people, and so many companies are really eager to tap into gen Z, um, as a. Yeah. Yeah. And then our second day, um, yeah, their second day we had a, an, another amazing three panelists. And then that's also the day that we had, uh, Elizabeth, you have her amazing talk.

Um, and that second day we talked a little bit more about sort of actionable insights. Like what you, what can you do based on what you learned the first day, um, as a company, and we were specifically trying to target, you know, smaller companies and startups. Um, who are really trying to tap into gen Z is sort of like a, an additive source of a sort of power for that for their companies.

Um, but I think again, you know, something we talked about is just, you know, the intentionality behind, uh, marketing to gen Z, um, because it's such a sort of transparent in such a, um, uh, self-aware uh, generation. Um, and so, so talk to me about what makes a good anatomy of an ad. Um, to gen Z, uh, what brands are doing well out there and why they're doing well?

Um, I think it was another really important point of discussion. Um, and you know, these are all discussions that are going to continue to happen because I think one of the most characteristic things about gen Z that it's uncharacteristic. Um, and so it's constantly evolving. It's constantly changing. Um, so.

No, I'm hoping I can host another one of these again soon. Maybe get Elizabeth to speak again.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it was, it was amazing. Some of those speakers, especially on the first day they were so woke and they taught me a lot. And I was just surprised to hear about how deeply they're thinking about these things.

Um, how deeply they're thinking about marketing and how they're considering just. The holistic landscape of business and mental health and personal goals and growth and personal growth and business growth as well. So it was just really interesting to, to hear directly from them. And of course, some of those actionable insights on day two was really great.

Jeremy: So, um, do you have that summit available for replay or is it something that you're just thinking about doing another one soon?

Yeah, that will be available for replay. It's going to go up on YouTube soon and then we'll all be giving out little snippets. Excellent. Yeah. I definitely want to tell everyone to check it out.

Elizabeth: I think it was brilliantly done and you'll, I think our listeners will really enjoy that. Um, so what types of companies and like asks, are you kind of seeing come through dorm ops?

Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's a super interesting question because when I started dorm ops, uh, you know, my goal was to help as many small businesses.

Uh, whether they were local mom, moms and pops, or really early stage startups, as much as they can, um, target gen Z. Um, just because I think I'm wanting to, you know, there are all these big companies out there that are, you know, doing all these things behind the scenes. And I really wanted to, you know, intimately help as many, uh, companies and entrepreneurs, um, on a personal level as I could.

But, uh, I think so many companies, so many large enterprises, um, and I think. A really powerful companies have trumped me sort of asking, you know, how can we tap into gen Z as quickly as possible? And, you know, that's sort of oxymoronic just because, you know, there's no easy hack into, you know, trying to reach gen Z effectively or impactfully.

I think, you know, there definitely is sort of like this illusion that you can through social media. And I think, you know, the social dilemma definitely showed us to some extent that, you know, There are ways to sort of like get this addiction. Um, um, and I think I'm trying to, uh, you know, same time navigate trying to get new clients, also trying to fight, you know, this urge to help these companies, you know, tap into gen Z as quickly as they can make as much profit as they can and get all the data that they can.

Um, so it's, it's really, you know, a weird, weird fight to be fighting.

Elizabeth: It is, I think it's such an internal battle. Um, it's the same thing for trying to grow a company, uh, like a startup or like designer up it's constantly wear on. I talked about this in the summit where you're being faced with these lesser of two evils decisions, you know?

And I think the bigger companies get, um, the more of those they're faced with and the more you have nothing but your values to guide you and the stronger you can hold to those. And, um, you know, just remember the intentionality behind what you're doing every step of the way. Yes, it may cost you monetarily, but if you can see success and value for more than just money, um, That's it's really important.

It's really important. If we want to change some of these things that are happening with, um, big tech and. And everything else that we're seeing. Um, and, you know, from the documentary, there was a lot of admonition, um, I think, but not, not a lot of discussion in terms of like, how did we get here and how are we going to get out of it and what can, what can be done?

And so I kind of wanted to take a step back, um, and you know, like before we prescribe kind of changing tech or avoiding it or pointing the finger and the blame, I think, um, What kept coming to my mind when I was watching it is like, what is the need? What is this void that we're not able to fill without technology, without having our phones on us 24 seven without needing that validation from a social media, like, um, what's missing from our relationships ourselves and others that kind of leave us vulnerable to this manipulation or this, you know, um, social tech brainwashing.

And I think that's what I mean when I say I feel like the real dilemma is an inner dilemma before it's a social one. Um, and so kind of, are you seeing this happen a lot in your generation, in campus? Do you, do you feel this conflict that we were talking about kind of in the professional space also happening in the personal space with people that you know?

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, again, something that they said in the documentary was. You know, we've switched from sort of this, tool-based thinking about tech, sort of this addiction based making it, not something that you see, you know, all across, you know, different spheres and it's like sphere agnostic.

And I think that's super scary because, um, again, like I said, a documentary like social media, especially, you know, not just tech, it's sort of like this utopian thing, but at the same time, this dystopian thing. And so it's, you know, it's, it's all a matter of, you know, I guess how we use it. Um, but one of the dilemmas, I think.

I see, particularly with gen Z is, you know, we were born into the social media generation. And so, um, you know, having grown up with sort of social media, just there available for us, it's, you know, hard to imagine a world where we scale back its use or, you know, think about the fact that there are so many corporations out there that don't use as intentionally as we do.

And that sort of dissonance is, is definitely something that. Can come across as a roadblock and give you some, or it gives me at least some disillusion that over, you know, uh, whether or not gen Z can use social media as like a powerful tool moving forward and has done so many amazing things about the same time.

You know, if we even just log in and tap a few things and give that much data away. Um, it makes, it really makes you wonder.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And I wrote about this recently too, um, in an article titled a user centric design, is it causing us more suffering than good? And I think that's something that we forget, um, in trying to make everything more user centric.

We're really saying we're trying to make everything really people-centric. And then furthermore, what we're saying is we're trying to make everything really easy and really utopian, as you said. Right?  And the issue with that is it's a very anthropocentric point of view. Um, we're not thinking about the planet as much when we're constantly doing that.

When the main focus is, how do we make our lives as humans easier. Sometimes that directly contradicts what's better for. Animal life or the planet, or, you know, things that are not human. Um, And so I think that is where, you know, it's so important to address those inner issues. And I think the one way to ease a lot of the discomfort and to change our perception about.

All of these social dilemmas is really to know yourself, you know, um, to know yourself and to have these things not have such a hold on. You naturally intrinsically for you to not want them. Is this very powerful form of freedom? I think that we're all looking for. And that just creates a more healthy mindset and a more healthy way of moving through the world.

And I think, you know, there's a lot of ways to do that, whether it's through mindfulness practices or meditation or therapy, and, um, again, our, our. What we teach at designer up is all about mindful design and interaction. And it's just based on this idea that every decision that we make and everything that we build old and do is really an extension of ourselves.

And so we can't really, you know, divorce what we're doing and what we're making from kind of who we are inside. So it's just so important to take care of that. And I think, um, you know, the pointers in the documentary that talk about exposing ourselves to differing opinions, I think it's, it's important.

It's extremely important, especially now that we're more aware, um, of how we're being fed, what we want to reinforce our, you know, worldviews and our beliefs about reality. Hmm, and how that can be dangerous. Um, but I think that there is definitely an issue with exposing ourselves when we aren't ready and when we don't have the tools, um, to be able to handle those opinions.

And I wanted you to tell them about that story that you told to me about what happened with, um, Charles Murray at Middlebury college, and a little bit about that. So, um, yeah, just, um, tell us about that.

Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. So. Uh, Charles Murray is a critical academic and an author, and he wrote, uh, the bell curve, um, which was this extremely controversial, um, piece of work, um, that essentially talks about the, uh, biological inferiority of specific races people.

Um, and, uh, sadly, no, he was invited to speak on Middlebury's campus. This happened a year before I came onto campus. Um, and you know, there, there's, there's so many ongoing discussions, especially today, um, about, you know, the purpose of an academic institution and, you know, uh, when to expose students to differing opinions, like you mentioned, um, what's so hard about that discussion is, you know, there's a really thin line.

If there's a line at all. Um, maybe even just a gray area between, you know, differing opinions and then something that devolves into hate speech or speech that's offensive. Um, and so, uh, when he came onto campus, uh, well, some students thought that they were inviting him, you know, purely for the sake of, uh, meaning someone who could give them, uh, an academic, uh, arguments, you know, uh, argue against, uh, what ended up happening is that, you know, his presence and his talks had a really deeply, psychologically injurious effect on a lot of students on campus.

Um, And, you know, I like to think retrospectively and, you know, say that that's something that should have been expected that, you know, um, but again, it is sort of like, it's really thin line between, you know, offensive speech and then speech that really injure someone. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, like it's taken in the context of social media where, you know, as the social dilemmas showed us, like almost all our feeds can be just these echo chambers for us.Um, it's, it's something that is really hard to grapple with it.

Elizabeth: Exactly and I mean, that's. That's exactly the point it's I think it is important to expose ourselves, but the problem comes when we're not psychologically equipped to handle it with the right tools, to know how to respond, because you know, when someone comes at you with something that feels really offensive and just, um, lights that fire, that, that anger, that fear inside of you.

If you don't have the right inner tools, like, you know, nonviolent communication and the practice of empathy and other things, to be able to transform that into something that's not going to be psychologically damaging and to be able to have the right vocabulary, to dialogue about it in an open and accepting way.

That's when the problems really happen. And it's evidenced in the responses from social media as well, ironically, um, from Twitter and, um, you know, Facebook and everywhere else, where people were really angry and fearful about what they saw in the documentary. There were a lot of negative emotions and those negative emotions just beget, more negative emotions, and it just became name this yelling match on Twitter and, um, You know, I think, um, in terms of like gen Z as well, I feel like the generation has just been a lot more exposed to things like mindfulness and there are less of a stigma to things like mental health and, and, you know, even from my generation or my parents' generation, but how, how are you seeing, I think you kind of.

Explained a little bit how you're seeing their reaction to these things, but you know, their ability to hold different viewpoints without reacting negatively. Um, do you see that as something that people are aware of that they're working on, that there's a difference in, in your generation that you're noticing?

Jeremy: Yeah. I think this is something that's yacht Ahmed from Juve Consulting says all the time, but, uh, I think one of the sort of calling cards of Gen Z is to talk to us. Not about us. Um, I think that's something that, you know, applies really well to, you know, the public sphere to everything else. And it's that I think Gen Z is a very self aware, uh, generation in the sense that I think, um, you know, in this age of disinformation, misinformation, wherever you want to call it, I think, um, It's, it can be hard to you get all that information that you are, you know, get all the different sides of an argument.

Um, but I think it's a, it's a generation that does want that. Um, and I think like one of the things that I tell companies when they're trying to market to gen Z, um, or when I talk, when I'm talking to individuals or, you know, anyone that wants to learn more about gen Z, I think one of the things that gen Z is really love when it comes to marketing branding.

Um, just products that they enjoy using, um, is the transparency. Um, and it's, uh, because that transparency, you know, gets the company's intentionality, it helps us understand why they're doing what they're doing. Um, and I think underlying all that is just sort of this innate desire to, I think, want to understand.

Um, so I think, uh, for gen Z, just as with all other generations, I think there are always going to be these visceral reactions to. No people that have opinions that you don't agree with, especially if those opinions, you know, directly, uh, implicate who you are and what your identity is. I think there's sort of this growing, uh, you know, trend and also need, uh, to just try and understand other other perspectives.

I mean, again, gen Z is a super diverse, uh, group of people. Uh, we're not just sort of like one type of person. And so we're living in difference. Um, and I think, you know, there's just more and more difference that is shown to us every day. And so it's, it's I think a constant evolution of trying to understand all of that.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, that's such a good point. And, um, and you know, I think just this, this kind of wanting to understand that openness is so important and, um, With that. I think what. Is another really important side to it is just being able to cultivate those skills, you know, because, and, um, you know, I have this excerpt from the podcast, but as Yoda warns us, right?

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. And I think when people do feel. Fearful and challenged by something that contradicts their worldview, that can be really difficult to digest. And we just stop listening. We stop being able to dialogue. We stopped being able to understand, and those are all of the things that we all want to be able to do, but don't always have the tools to do it.

And I think that's why it is so important that, um, one or to develop practices that help us decouple from that identity so much, because I think it is that attachment to that worldview that makes us feel like there is no possible other right way. And as long as we constantly are always thinking that.

Then we are constantly always thinking that. And therefore it's always going to lead us to this, um, othering of each other. And that's, that's, that's going to be a problem. That's going to fuel everything that we build and do and create all the systems we make, all the tech, we make everything. Um, And so, yeah, I think it really is about being able to bear that brunt of these hurricanes of different opinions that come our way, these opposing viewpoints, you know, without anger, without fear, without blame.

And you know, if history can tell us anything, we haven't been very good at that as a human race. Um, and so, yeah, and a lot of that comes from being able to heal our own traumas because sometimes we don't have control of that stuff psychologically. That's just built up and we don't know where it comes from, and we don't know how to kind of gracefully entertain these emotions and the things we find difficult.

And, um, You know, if it's not tech, then it's definitely going to be something else. So, you know, I guess in just closing, you know, if I were to sort of pick up where I think that documentary left off, or maybe fill in some of the blanks that I wish it had had, I would say it's so important for companies and for just individuals, especially creatives, especially for anyone working in tech, um, To really define your values.

Um, if you're constantly equating this success to monetary gain mean, um, to likes and popularity or fame, I just, I think we're always going to have these issues, right. So it's important to really understand the voids that we're trying to fill and. What are these human essential needs? Um, if they're not being met, how can we meet them in healthier ways?

How can we talk about them in healthier ways? And that might require seeking some help, you know, whether that's talking to mentors or a therapist or whatever it is. I think that really helps us to kind of get out of our own way, um, get out of our own assumptions and biases and. You know, that's so important when we're designing products for users or maybe we could just start calling them people instead of users.

That might be great. Um, and just, you know, being able to come up with new, um, ways to verbalize and communicate what we're feeling and, you know, developing a practice, something that helps us. Develop that objective part of ourselves, that's the observer and the active listener and all of those things that kind of help us better understand differing points of views.

And then acknowledging, you know, that we were always capable of doing harm. I think whether consciously or unconsciously, um, you know, the whistleblowers in this documentary seemed very shocked and thought that they were doing pure good. And I think that. May be a contributor to why they were just sort of ignoring the red flags that they had seen along the way.

Um, and cause if you aren't paying attention, then you're also complicit when you're building these things. So, um, I think that first step is sort of becoming aware that it's possible that we are doing harm. And then, you know, just practicing gratitude and compassion. I mean, it's, it's really hard to, um, to do it sometimes, but it's, I think the little daily practices just like with difficult parents or our unruly kids or whatever it is that kind of extends out when we practice it to our community, to our, you know, users.

Um, and you know, whenever I think of that, I think of that saying by Abe Lincoln, um, when he said "I disliked that man, I must get to know him better", um, because that's kind of what I try to think. Whenever I'm just faced with someone I think is just being absolutely ridiculous. And then, um, you know, lastly, just lifting others up.

I think if we're just concerned a lot less with our own agendas and our own ego, um, you know, And we're willing to share and be open. I think that's a great way to kind of stop that power, hungry, greed, um, you know, part of our human nature and, um, you know, I think that's, that's really where true freedom is.

It's it's. You know, whether that's freedom from technology or outside forces controlling us. Um, you know, it takes that inner inner practice. And I think one of the best places is to start with mindfulness. And I wanted to kind of get your opinion too. Um, Jeremy, like what do you think are some, some takeaways and suggestions of how we can all start to kind of handle what we're seeing in tech and all of the stuff that's just come up in documentaries that we're becoming aware of.

What are some of your tips to your. Generation and to companies and to everyone else you talk and work with.

Jeremy: Yeah, totally. I think one of the things I would say to people in my generation, especially because they're born into this age of social media, I think is, uh, your identity is not the identity that these companies or corporations have as data.

Uh, you are not a data points. Um, and I think that's important to acknowledge both as, you know, someone that. Has social media, but also as people that are marketing to other to use social media, um, you know, uh, humans are, are not, are not dating the points. Um, as much as, you know, we want them to be for if it's, um, their knots.

Um, and so it's important to be mindful in that, um, intention, how you use your marketing and how you brand yourself. Um, you know, this, um, I think what they said in the documentary is there's this new market for a human attention. Um, and you want to stray away from, I think, productizing, uh, humans and human attention in general.

And so just being conscious of that, I think is super important. Um, it's, I think it's really easy again, you know, social media is this utopia and dystopia at the same time. And I think. Well, it can be really easy to have this downward spiral to the dystopia because once you get rolling downhill, it's super hard to stop it.

It's going to be an uphill battle to try and, you know, make it the utopia that it can be. Um, and so we have to be very intentional and very conscious in the way that we use it.

Elizabeth: That's brilliantly said. Um, I think that's the perfect wrap up to everything we talked about today. So thank you so much for the brilliant insights for just talking with me about all of this.

And, um, you know, if you guys want to learn more about this stuff about designing and building more mindful products, come check out what we're doing at designer up checkout, what Jeremy's doing over at dorm ops and stay tuned to the podcast for more. And we're over at designerup.co.

Thanks again for watching. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you again soon. Thank you so much, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Thanks!